Proverbs 30:4 – Two Persons Represented As One God?

Proverbs 30:4 Who has ascended up into heaven, and descended? Who has gathered the wind in his fists? Who has bound the waters in his garment? Who has established all the ends of the earth? What is his name, and what is his son’s name, if you know? — World English

The above scripture is sometimes presented by trinitarians and some others as evidence that Jesus is Yahweh (Jehovah). There is, however, definitely nothing in the verse about a triune God, or that God is more than one person.

The thought presented is that he who has ascended and descended from heaven is Jesus, and he who has gathered the wind in his fists is Jesus, and who he bound the waters is Jesus, and he who established the all the ends of the earth is Jesus. It is reasoned here that he who has ascended and descended from heaven is Yahweh, etc.; thus, Jesus must be Yahweh. Any thought that Yahweh is more than one person has to be imagined in the realm of human imagination, and assumptions made beyond what Agur wrote, and then those assumptions have to be placed over what Agur wrote, and what Agur wrote has to be misrepresented, in order to make what he wrote appear to be proof that Yahweh and his Son are one God.

One has to do use a lot of imagination so as to assume the above. First of all, the questions are asked, not to identify the son of God as God, but Agur describes himself (and all men at that time) as compared to Yahweh, the Holy One of Israel.

Who has ascended up into heaven, and descended?

The thought behind the question is that no man has ascended into heaven so that he could definitely know about heavenly things, and descended so as to tell about what he had seen there. Jesus, himself, at that time had NOT yet descended from heaven, and thus, this is not speaking of Jesus, although Jesus surely used the reasoning of this question when he stated:

No one has ascended into heaven, but he who descended from heaven : the Son of Man.. — John 3:13, New American Standard.

Jesus had not yet — at that time — “ascended” into heaven, but he had descended from heaven, and thus could tell of heavenly things. (John 3:12) No other man has ever existed that could say that he descended from heaven. No man in the time Agur could say that he had descended from heaven.

Of course, Yahweh Himself is in heaven and earth. “Yahweh he is God in heaven above and on the earth beneath.” (Deuteronomy 4:39) He does not have to ascend to heavens in order to know of things of heaven, and the question appears to consider this to be evident in his case, but not in the case of man, who would need to have ascended into heaven and then descended therefrom in order to tell of heavenly things.

See: Jesus’ Pre-Human Existence

Who has gathered the winds in his fists?

The thought is that no man has gathered the wind in his fists. It is man that has fists; figuratively speaking, Yahweh could be said to have fists, but we have not found any scripture that refers to Yahweh as possessing fists. The thought, however, is in comparison, the winds cannot be controlled by man, but that Yahweh can control them as he wills. Jesus, by means of Yahweh’s figuratively finger (Luke 11:20), God’s Holy Spirit (Matthew 12:28), demonstrated Yahweh’s power of the winds. — Luke 8:25.

Who has bound the waters in his garment?

Who hath bound waters in a garment? == Young’s Literal

Again, it is man that wears garments; any use of this related to God would have to be figurative. “Garment” could be figurative, however, of a garment limiting the bounds of the water. Yahweh did bound the waters in the second and third days of creation as related to the planet earth. Of course, the only true God (John 17:3) did use His Son as an agent by which God created the heavens and earth; this does no mean that the agent of Yahweh is Yahweh. (John 1:10; 17:5) The point is, however, that no man can bind the waters of the earth as did God.

Who has established all the ends of the earth?

“Earth” here does not appear to be referring to the planet itself, but the “earth” that was created on the third day of creation. (Genesis 1:9,10) The agent that God used in this creation was His Son. (John 1:10; 17:1,3,5) Thus, as God’s agent, the Son of God could also be said to have established all the ends of the earth. (Hebrews 1:10) Such would not mean that Jesus is the Creator, or that Jesus and his God are one God.

What is his name{?)

What is his name refers only to Yahweh as one person, not as three persons. Of course, God had revealed his name to Israel and that name is usually rendered into English as Jehovah or Yahweh (meaning: He is, He will be, He causes to be). To know the word that represents the name does not, however, know the person that is represented by the name.

And what is his son’s name, if you know?

Here we have the thought of another name, not the same “name” as represented in the phrase “his name”. “His” in the phrase “his son’s name” refers back to same person who was being spoken of in the phrase before, that is, “his name”. The “name”, then, of the son is not the same “name” as that of the son’s father, but is is a different name. Some have sought to make it appear that in Proverbs 30:4, only one name is being referred to; a close examination of what is said, however, reveals that two different names are being referred to, “his [the Father’s] name”, and “his son’s name”, the name of the son of the Father.

Of course, at that time, the son had not yet been revealed, and no man could answer concerning having knowledge of the son’s name, as no man had ascended into heaven so as to know who the son was.

Thus seen, there is nothing in Proverbs 30:4 that gives any indication that God exists in three person, or that the Son and his God and Father are one God.

Related Restoration Light Studies:

Without Jesus Absolutely Nothing Was Made?

Beginnings in the Bible

         
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4 comments to Proverbs 30:4 – Two Persons Represented As One God?

  • Born Again Christian:
    Proverbs 30:4
    New King James Version (NKJV)
    4 Who has ascended into heaven, or descended? Who has gathered the wind in His fists? Who has bound the waters in a garment? Who has established all the ends of the earth? What is His name, and what is His Son’s name, If you know?

    a) You are really missing the point on this one. If it is really asking for two names then the right questions in the beginning would have been: Who have gathered the wind in their fists? Who have bound the waters in a garment? Who have established all the ends of the earth?

    I have no reason to believe that the questions above are asking for two names. The questions are concerning one person, that is, the God and Father of the the Son. It is not asking the questions concerning two persons. It is only the last question that asks concerning two names.

    Born Again Christian:
    b) Don’t you think it’s kind of odd to ask a question “What is His name, and what is His Son’s name?” at the end, when you say that the first three lines of questions is only referring to the Father?

    No, I don’t think that is is at all odd, since all except the last question are related to only one person. Indeed, if the thought of trinity be read into this, one might wonder why it does not ask:

    Who have (plural) ascended up into heaven, and descended? Who have (plural) gathered the wind in their fists? Who has bound the waters in their garments? Who have established all the ends of the earth? What are their names, if you know?

  • Born Again Christian:
    “Of course, at that time, the son had not yet been revealed, and no man could answer concerning having knowledge of the son’s name, as no man had ascended into heaven so as to know who the son was.”

    a) Another thing, God has foreknowledge of the future, he does not need to wait
    in the future to say what He needed to say.

    I am not sure what point is thought to be made as applied to Proverbs 30:4, not unless you are saying that the Son did not exist at the time that this was stated. In reality, Jesus did exist, but the time had not yet come for him to be revealed as such.

    http://godandson.reslight.net/?cat=85

  • Born Again Christian

    Who has ascended into heaven, or descended?
    This question is a figurative way of saying that God is been everywhere. The Son being God has been everywhere, he does not need to wait for his humanity for him to descend on the earth.

    Of course the first four lines of questions are only referring to the one Holy One which is God, but this one Holy One which is God; is the Father and the Son. This one Holy One has two names.
    WHAT IS HIS NAME? YAHWEH (THE FATHER)
    AND WHAT IS HIS SON’S NAME? JESUS (THE SON)

    • ResLight

      Born Again Christian
      Submitted on 2013/03/12 at 9:01 am

      Who has ascended into heaven, or descended?
      This question is a figurative way of saying that God is been everywhere. The Son being God has been everywhere, he does not need to wait for his humanity for him to descend on the earth.

      Of course the first four lines of questions are only referring to the one Holy One which is God, but this one Holy One which is God

      So far I would agree with what is stated; I will add that the scritpure identifies this one who did all these things as one person, not as more than one person.

      Born Again Christian
      Submitted on 2013/03/12 at 9:01 am

      ; is the Father and the Son. This one Holy One has two names.

      No, the scripture first speaks of the name of this Holy One, and then it speaks of name of the Son of this Holy One.

      Born Again Christian
      Submitted on 2013/03/12 at 9:01 am

      WHAT IS HIS NAME? YAHWEH (THE FATHER)
      AND WHAT IS HIS SON’S NAME? JESUS (THE SON)

      Precisely, the Holy One of Proverbs 30 is one person, and the Son is the Son of that unipersonal Holy One.

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